Post by strategos on Jan 15, 2024 23:25:40 GMT
I include this conversation verbatim to aid the clarity on wreckers and buildings:
Jeff Leong
Top contributor
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Ok, so Leviathan dreadnoughts have wrecker(2) on their fist, but how do they use it against an occupied building? It seems like they have to activate in the first fire or advancing fire stage, but the only way for them to get in contact with an occupied structure would be to charge … meaning that they couldn’t activate in either the first fire or advancing fire stages. So … how would a Leviathan take down an occupied building with its claws, or would it have to wait until th… See more
Ian Wood
Top contributor
To sum up the steps in more detail:
- Give the Leviathans Advance Orders.
- In the Movement phase, move into base contact with the building. This will Engage and Pin both the Leviathans and enemy Garrisons.
- In the Engagement stage, fight in close combat against all models in the Garrisons. High CAF plus Rend is going to help, but if there are a lot of models in the Garrisons you are going to be in trouble. Especially if Ogryns are involved.
- If you survive the combat and don’t withdraw, in the Advancing fire stage you can activate the Leviathans and use Wrecker on the building.
Note that it’s not clear if you can activate the Leviathans if there are any Garrisons left alive, as the text for Pinned Detachments in the
Advancing fire stage is… messy…
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Dan Bird
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Ian Wood your last point is good Ian. I'd say the Wrecker unit couldn't activate due to it saying "a Detachment can be activated and may fire during the Advancing Fire stage if it is not Engaged and Pinned and is issued with an Advance Order"
It would still be Engaged and Pinned wouldn't it? If it didn't kill all the models in the Garrisoned Structure?
I guess you could issue it with a First Fire order next turn if you did survive!
EDIT : you cannot even activate a unit that is Engaged and Pinned using a first fire order so no.. I can't fire fire and bring the building down. God damn it rules.
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Edited
Ian Wood
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Dan Bird the issue is whether that text is saying ‘you CANNOT activate it and you CANNOT fire with it’, or saying ‘you CAN activate it but you CANNOT fire with it’.
If it was phrased the same as the First Fire restriction where it just flat-out says ‘cannot be activated’ it would be a lot clearer. 🙄
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Dan Bird
Top contributor
Ian Wood Oh right, I get how you're reading it now. I didn't read it like that at all, just read it as it cannot activate if Engaged and Pinned 😂 would be much easier like you say if it was worded like first fire.
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Jeff Leong
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Ian Wood gotcha. Yeah, I guess my real question was how to activate them in the advancing fire stage. Looks like they could if they survive combat … probably. Thanks!
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Jeff Nelson
Ian Wood where are you getting that they're Pinned? The Engaging Garrison Structures section says models just count as Engaged.
Rules as intended, I think there's also a typo in it, and it should be "Infantry models count as Engaged ... other Detachment types do not." The last sentence doesn't make sense otherwise.
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Ian Wood
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Jeff Nelson the normal rules for base contact and being Engaged.
‘If a Detachment is Engaged with an enemy Detachment of a Scale equal to or higher than its own, then the Detachment is said to be ‘Engaged & Pinned' instead.’
Leviathans are the same Scale as Infantry, so being Engaged means that they are Engaged and Pinned.
I wish they’d used ‘Engaged’ specifically for not-pinned, and then used ‘Pinned’ for stuff that can’t move or shoot, but it’s too late for that. 😔
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Edited
Earl Webb
Top contributor
You would just roll a wrecker attack when the unit is activated even if the building is garrisoned that’s how the weapon works nothing says otherwise
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Jeff Leong
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Earl Webb it’s not quite that easy, as folks have discussed below, but there is a way to do it
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Earl Webb
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Jeff Leong but it is actually that easy lol. Thats what wrecker does all this other stuff about being engaged or pinned doesnt matter. Its like this when you activate a unit in the first fire or advanceing fire stage. Are in a base contact with a structure yes/no is yes opponent makes a save for the building done. Thats it
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Edited
Ian Wood
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Earl Webb no, it’s not that easy.
If you’re on First Fire Orders then you flat-out *don’t get to activate* if Pinned. Which means that you can’t use Wrecker weapons because there is no activation.
For Advance Orders it’s more ambiguous whether you get to activate or not.
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Earl Webb
Top contributor
Ian Wood its not ambiguous tho. It literally says a unit on advance has to activate. Doesnt matter if its engaged or not RAW is very clear.
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Ian Wood
Top contributor
Earl Webb I’m one of the main people arguing for being able to activate in the Advancing fire stage when Pinned, but even I don’t argue that the RAW is clear.
‘A Detachment can be activated and may fire during the Advancing Fire stage if it is not Engaged & Pinned and is issued with an Advance Order and is on the battlefield.’
That might mean that you can activate but can’t fire, or it might mean that you can’t activate at all.
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Earl Webb
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Ian Wood its pretty ckear under wrecker the ability to shoot or fight is irrelevant 1. Are you activating the unit check. 2 choose a build you are in base to base with. 3. Opponent makes a save for the building. 4. Building takes damage. Anything else is trying to add to or take away from the rules. Its absolutely pretty clear. The only time you lose the order is if it was a first fire order. You don’t lose it with an advance order.
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Edited
Rick Andrews
Top contributor
It can indeed walk into an occupied building in the hope of bringing it down, but as if then becomes Engaged with every stand inside, it will almost certainly die before it does so.
Dont try on Garrisoned buildings!!
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Jeff Leong
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Rick Andrews sending in a big unit of contemptors backed by leviathans had a shot at surviving.
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Ian Wood
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Jeff Leong the Contemptors won’t be involved in the combat as they don’t have Wrecker weapons and can’t move into contact with the building.
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Jeff Leong
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Ian Wood fair point. Would have to be all leviathans.
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Rick Andrews
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Jeff Leong they have Rend, right? In that case ok, fair point lol
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Jeff Leong
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They do. They tend to do ok in combat unless they are really outnumbered.
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Peter Pienczuk
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Isn’t wrecker basically a free attack against structures in the first fire/advanced fire phase?
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Dan Bird
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Peter Pienczuk pretty much mate. Best used against empty structures unless you're double hard like a Titan and can withstand some combat first.
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Jeff Leong
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Peter Pienczuk but you do have to activate during that phase, so, as mentioned elsewhere, you’d have to be on advancing fire order if you are moving in
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Jeff Nelson
Since they have a weapon with the Wrecker trait, they can just walk up to the structure.
May be an image of text
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Fredrik Westman
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Jeff Nelson and anyone else, what does the Last paragraph refer to? Other Detachment types are not allowed to move into base contact so why are they referred to at all?
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Jeff Nelson
Fredrik Westman my best guess is that the previous sentence is missing the word Infantry. So it's "Infantry models in base to base contract with a structure count as Engaged [...] Other Detachment types do not"
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Fredrik Westman
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Jeff Nelson that would make sense. Right now I dont understand what Other referred to. Other than Infantry seems to put it all together. But, Dreads w Wrecker (Leviathan) are also scale 1 and should count as engaged (and pinned). So it should be Other than Infantry & Walkers..?
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Edited
Dan Bird
Top contributor
Hey Jeff,
Page 72 "Engaging Garrisoned Structures"
Cannot end their movement in base contact with the structure unless they are an Infantry model issued with a charge order, a Titan or a model that has a weapon with the Wrecker trait
So you can issue Advance and get to move into base contact with the building or First Fire of you're already in base contact.
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Edited
Andrew Bond
Top contributor
Dan Bird cant move with first fire
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Dan Bird
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Andrew Bond Aye, thought that was obvious shouldn't have put it 😂
Edited for better clarity 👍🏻
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Edited
CJ Karamol
Top contributor
I read it that the (2) represents 2 wounds?
But I’ve also been up almost 24 hours now soooo
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Fredrik Westman
Top contributor
CJ Karamol it does, but thats not the question.
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CJ Karamol
Top contributor
Fredrik Westman in my defense, I warned ya! I wasn’t even CLOSE
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Edited
Matt Clarke
Alas, the Wrecker trait needs the model to be activated to use it - Dreads are Scale (1) the same as Infantry, so once they move into contact with the garrisoned Structure they are Engaged & Pinned. Eng & Pinned Detachments can't be activated in the Fire Fire or Advancing Fire stages so teeny Walkers can't bring down an occupied building.
Now, Knights (and Titans) on the other hand...
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Julian Apps
Wrecker's utility will be dropping a building to prevent the enemy from using it or to open a line of sight/field of fire. If you don't withdraw you will either be engaged if the combat was a draw or the enemy will have withdrawn if you won the combat so I don't get how you would drop a building with enemy in it using wrecker
Jeff Leong
Top contributor
·
1 d
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Ok, so Leviathan dreadnoughts have wrecker(2) on their fist, but how do they use it against an occupied building? It seems like they have to activate in the first fire or advancing fire stage, but the only way for them to get in contact with an occupied structure would be to charge … meaning that they couldn’t activate in either the first fire or advancing fire stages. So … how would a Leviathan take down an occupied building with its claws, or would it have to wait until th… See more
Ian Wood
Top contributor
To sum up the steps in more detail:
- Give the Leviathans Advance Orders.
- In the Movement phase, move into base contact with the building. This will Engage and Pin both the Leviathans and enemy Garrisons.
- In the Engagement stage, fight in close combat against all models in the Garrisons. High CAF plus Rend is going to help, but if there are a lot of models in the Garrisons you are going to be in trouble. Especially if Ogryns are involved.
- If you survive the combat and don’t withdraw, in the Advancing fire stage you can activate the Leviathans and use Wrecker on the building.
Note that it’s not clear if you can activate the Leviathans if there are any Garrisons left alive, as the text for Pinned Detachments in the
Advancing fire stage is… messy…
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Dan Bird
Top contributor
Ian Wood your last point is good Ian. I'd say the Wrecker unit couldn't activate due to it saying "a Detachment can be activated and may fire during the Advancing Fire stage if it is not Engaged and Pinned and is issued with an Advance Order"
It would still be Engaged and Pinned wouldn't it? If it didn't kill all the models in the Garrisoned Structure?
I guess you could issue it with a First Fire order next turn if you did survive!
EDIT : you cannot even activate a unit that is Engaged and Pinned using a first fire order so no.. I can't fire fire and bring the building down. God damn it rules.
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Edited
Ian Wood
Top contributor
Dan Bird the issue is whether that text is saying ‘you CANNOT activate it and you CANNOT fire with it’, or saying ‘you CAN activate it but you CANNOT fire with it’.
If it was phrased the same as the First Fire restriction where it just flat-out says ‘cannot be activated’ it would be a lot clearer. 🙄
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Dan Bird
Top contributor
Ian Wood Oh right, I get how you're reading it now. I didn't read it like that at all, just read it as it cannot activate if Engaged and Pinned 😂 would be much easier like you say if it was worded like first fire.
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Jeff Leong
Author
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Ian Wood gotcha. Yeah, I guess my real question was how to activate them in the advancing fire stage. Looks like they could if they survive combat … probably. Thanks!
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Jeff Nelson
Ian Wood where are you getting that they're Pinned? The Engaging Garrison Structures section says models just count as Engaged.
Rules as intended, I think there's also a typo in it, and it should be "Infantry models count as Engaged ... other Detachment types do not." The last sentence doesn't make sense otherwise.
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Ian Wood
Top contributor
Jeff Nelson the normal rules for base contact and being Engaged.
‘If a Detachment is Engaged with an enemy Detachment of a Scale equal to or higher than its own, then the Detachment is said to be ‘Engaged & Pinned' instead.’
Leviathans are the same Scale as Infantry, so being Engaged means that they are Engaged and Pinned.
I wish they’d used ‘Engaged’ specifically for not-pinned, and then used ‘Pinned’ for stuff that can’t move or shoot, but it’s too late for that. 😔
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Edited
Earl Webb
Top contributor
You would just roll a wrecker attack when the unit is activated even if the building is garrisoned that’s how the weapon works nothing says otherwise
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Jeff Leong
Author
Top contributor
Earl Webb it’s not quite that easy, as folks have discussed below, but there is a way to do it
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Earl Webb
Top contributor
Jeff Leong but it is actually that easy lol. Thats what wrecker does all this other stuff about being engaged or pinned doesnt matter. Its like this when you activate a unit in the first fire or advanceing fire stage. Are in a base contact with a structure yes/no is yes opponent makes a save for the building done. Thats it
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Edited
Ian Wood
Top contributor
Earl Webb no, it’s not that easy.
If you’re on First Fire Orders then you flat-out *don’t get to activate* if Pinned. Which means that you can’t use Wrecker weapons because there is no activation.
For Advance Orders it’s more ambiguous whether you get to activate or not.
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Earl Webb
Top contributor
Ian Wood its not ambiguous tho. It literally says a unit on advance has to activate. Doesnt matter if its engaged or not RAW is very clear.
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Ian Wood
Top contributor
Earl Webb I’m one of the main people arguing for being able to activate in the Advancing fire stage when Pinned, but even I don’t argue that the RAW is clear.
‘A Detachment can be activated and may fire during the Advancing Fire stage if it is not Engaged & Pinned and is issued with an Advance Order and is on the battlefield.’
That might mean that you can activate but can’t fire, or it might mean that you can’t activate at all.
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Earl Webb
Top contributor
Ian Wood its pretty ckear under wrecker the ability to shoot or fight is irrelevant 1. Are you activating the unit check. 2 choose a build you are in base to base with. 3. Opponent makes a save for the building. 4. Building takes damage. Anything else is trying to add to or take away from the rules. Its absolutely pretty clear. The only time you lose the order is if it was a first fire order. You don’t lose it with an advance order.
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Edited
Rick Andrews
Top contributor
It can indeed walk into an occupied building in the hope of bringing it down, but as if then becomes Engaged with every stand inside, it will almost certainly die before it does so.
Dont try on Garrisoned buildings!!
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Jeff Leong
Author
Top contributor
Rick Andrews sending in a big unit of contemptors backed by leviathans had a shot at surviving.
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Ian Wood
Top contributor
Jeff Leong the Contemptors won’t be involved in the combat as they don’t have Wrecker weapons and can’t move into contact with the building.
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Jeff Leong
Author
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Ian Wood fair point. Would have to be all leviathans.
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Rick Andrews
Top contributor
Jeff Leong they have Rend, right? In that case ok, fair point lol
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Jeff Leong
Author
Top contributor
They do. They tend to do ok in combat unless they are really outnumbered.
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Peter Pienczuk
Top contributor
Isn’t wrecker basically a free attack against structures in the first fire/advanced fire phase?
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Dan Bird
Top contributor
Peter Pienczuk pretty much mate. Best used against empty structures unless you're double hard like a Titan and can withstand some combat first.
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Jeff Leong
Author
Top contributor
Peter Pienczuk but you do have to activate during that phase, so, as mentioned elsewhere, you’d have to be on advancing fire order if you are moving in
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Jeff Nelson
Since they have a weapon with the Wrecker trait, they can just walk up to the structure.
May be an image of text
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Fredrik Westman
Top contributor
Jeff Nelson and anyone else, what does the Last paragraph refer to? Other Detachment types are not allowed to move into base contact so why are they referred to at all?
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Jeff Nelson
Fredrik Westman my best guess is that the previous sentence is missing the word Infantry. So it's "Infantry models in base to base contract with a structure count as Engaged [...] Other Detachment types do not"
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Fredrik Westman
Top contributor
Jeff Nelson that would make sense. Right now I dont understand what Other referred to. Other than Infantry seems to put it all together. But, Dreads w Wrecker (Leviathan) are also scale 1 and should count as engaged (and pinned). So it should be Other than Infantry & Walkers..?
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Edited
Dan Bird
Top contributor
Hey Jeff,
Page 72 "Engaging Garrisoned Structures"
Cannot end their movement in base contact with the structure unless they are an Infantry model issued with a charge order, a Titan or a model that has a weapon with the Wrecker trait
So you can issue Advance and get to move into base contact with the building or First Fire of you're already in base contact.
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Edited
Andrew Bond
Top contributor
Dan Bird cant move with first fire
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Dan Bird
Top contributor
Andrew Bond Aye, thought that was obvious shouldn't have put it 😂
Edited for better clarity 👍🏻
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Edited
CJ Karamol
Top contributor
I read it that the (2) represents 2 wounds?
But I’ve also been up almost 24 hours now soooo
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Fredrik Westman
Top contributor
CJ Karamol it does, but thats not the question.
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CJ Karamol
Top contributor
Fredrik Westman in my defense, I warned ya! I wasn’t even CLOSE
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Edited
Matt Clarke
Alas, the Wrecker trait needs the model to be activated to use it - Dreads are Scale (1) the same as Infantry, so once they move into contact with the garrisoned Structure they are Engaged & Pinned. Eng & Pinned Detachments can't be activated in the Fire Fire or Advancing Fire stages so teeny Walkers can't bring down an occupied building.
Now, Knights (and Titans) on the other hand...
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Julian Apps
Wrecker's utility will be dropping a building to prevent the enemy from using it or to open a line of sight/field of fire. If you don't withdraw you will either be engaged if the combat was a draw or the enemy will have withdrawn if you won the combat so I don't get how you would drop a building with enemy in it using wrecker
